The Experimenter Series: Inclusion with Rosario Saud at Ericsson
A series of six interviews with the people pioneering scientific experiments in the workplace. We start with the brilliant Rosario Saud, Head of Performance at Ericsson, and her work on Diversity & Inclusion.
This is part one of The Experimenter Series, in which I discover how behavioural science is put into practice in real life. First up is the incredible Rosario Saud, who is Head of Performance at the telecom giant Ericsson. Her experience with experiments is recent, but as a seasoned HR Leader, she has many insights about how to bring the power of this research to life.
I’m Gus by the way 👋, I’ve just finished my MSc in the Psychology of Economic Life at the London School of Economics. I’m a researcher (and part-time interviewer!) at MoreThanNow, a team of behavioural scientists bringing experiments to the world of work.
“Well-run experiments are key for decision making. It's like I'm standing on solid ground on the stance of what and why I am changing.”
— Rosario Saud
Gus: Thank you so much for speaking to me. I’m very excited about our conversation so let’s get straight to it! Would you mind telling me a bit about yourself to kick things off?
Rosario: Absolutely! I've been with Ericsson for the past 13 years. I joined heading up the human resources in the Caribbean islands and standardized our people practice. Then started evolving my career as a people business partner for operations, which is a big piece of the organization, 85% of the headcount. From there I transitioned to work on the organizational development side of things, mainly from a cultural leadership perspective. And for the past seven years, I've been in the realm of talent management, with deep expertise in performance and career enablement.
G: Wow, that’s quite a career. How did you connect with experimental research from there?
R: For the past two years, I’ve been learning a lot about diversity and inclusion. This is the area is where I first came across experimentation. We hear much about it as an evidence-based organisation, but conducting research myself was a completely new experience. So, when I got connected with MoreThanNow, we went through the inclusion lab and the training program that they had. That's when I truly started learning about experiments and thought; let’s do some! So MoreThanNow challenged us, and in fact, I think that was the first challenging inquiry we had. When working with the team, it was easy to tell them what we were struggling with. But what wasn't easy was narrowing that big challenge into something that we can experiment on. That idea of thinking small is completely underestimated, in my opinion.
“It was easy to tell them what we were struggling with. But what wasn’t easy was narrowing that big challenge into something that we can experiment on. That thinking small is completely underestimated, in my opinion.”
G: Thinking small is very difficult! I think it is really underestimated too. Can you explain what it means for our readers?
R: Yes. You start with thinking big as that is what an organisation does, they want big answers to tackle the major issues and get results. But the key insight of thinking small is that those big problems, like exclusion at work, are really a huge collection of smaller challenges that have to be addressed piece by piece. That precision gives you the opportunity to really test your work, but it takes time to do that and realize whether it confirmed your hypothesis or it didn't. That uncertainty creates hesitancy to experiment, and the results are often not as clear cut as we would like. The truth is that one experiment always leads to another. And over time and through that process, we’ll be able to identify what works and what doesn’t.
G: What are the struggles in this? On the organisational side of things.
R: I think there's something around us minding today and tomorrow too closely. It's what keeps our brain working. We are so focused on getting the results, and with this kind of research, but how to run an experiment is as important as what the experiment is about. This takes time, and in today’s world, we want results yesterday. But guess what? That’s not right! You want and need results that can help you build a sustainable path forward. I’ve learned to love working with data scientists and deep experts in academia, and I’ve also learned to love learning, and you can learn to run experiments yourself! Unleash that fear of data, get support, explore and go for it. In our case, we also stumbled and learned about privacy and how to ensure we complied with and respected local regulations. But in some cases, we created ‘the issues’ ourselves becoming risk-averse and finding the excuse to not do the research that we wanted to do. The mantra: can do!
G: But in the end, you managed it and did some truly inspiring work! I have heard some of the insights you have found with MoreThanNow on inclusive performance management, which is such an important topic. How was your experience with the project?
R: It was frightening, but the commitment to being fact-based, cooperative and collaborative was bigger. Our team was present and committed; James (MoreThanNow’s founder) brought in Professor Oliver Hauser, and some colleagues from Harvard collaborated with us on the experiment. The results were subtle but made a big difference, and this made us curious about where other ‘small experiences’ could be having a big hindrance. I believe in experimentation, there is an adoption curve that needs to be tackled, but it is the most sustainable way forward. I think we all say we are committed, I believe we are, but speed and immediate results are always knocking at our door!
G: I can imagine. We talk about the difficulty of transitioning to an experimental approach all the time at MoreThanNow, it seems such a change from the way organisations normally do things when it comes to culture and change. What do you think is the value of moving in that direction?
“This made us curious about where other ‘small experiences’ could be having a big hindrance. I believe in experimentation, there is an adoption curve that needs to be tackled, but it is the most sustainable way forward.”
R: In a world where we are bombarded by headlines and information, having results that are scientifically proven is crucial. Well-run experiments are key for decision making. It's like I'm standing on solid ground on the stance of what and why I am changing. It's a door opener when you come in and say, no, I thank you for that suggestion, but we know what works and what we need to do. From a cultural standpoint, we speak about promoting fact-based decision-making. What better fact-based decision-making to back this up than by running an experiment? Realising this has been amazing. In short, there is no loss in experimenting… they all succeed: you either know what works, or you know what doesn’t.
G: That’s such a great answer, and connects you so well to the academic world too. I know you’ve worked a lot with brilliant academics alongside your partnership with MoreThanNow. How was that experience?
R: It was really good. The connection to academia just emphasised that research takes time and grounding. We want everything to move so quickly, but you learn that it takes time. Again, the thinking small, identifying that this is too big of a problem, there are many variables to be considered when trying to isolate what to test and how to test it. And putting together the hypothesis was such a learning moment for us. I almost wished that we had our own research team of academics as sometimes data became so difficult to find and then share. And remember it is not data but the story the data is telling us that matters, the ‘so what’ of the numbers.
G: Were there some surprises or challenges? You said that you found it quite frightening in the beginning, right?
R: The main surprise again was how specific we need to be when we’re running an experiment. Do we need really need to be so detailed? Yes! And we need to do more to help people on that journey. The lack of knowledge of what a randomized controlled trial means, what isolating variables actually meant, again, that thinking small approach.
G: That underestimation is really interesting. I feel like not a lot of companies use experiments in diversity and inclusion, or are maybe only starting to do so now. What do you think are some of the barriers to using them?
R: Time, money, people; are you data-driven? Do you care for science? it is the whole ecosystem. If you don't have the time, can you allocate resources to do it? If you don't have the resources and the time can you hire someone? If you don’t have the knowledge, do you invest in building it, is the focus on today or do you discuss sustainability and impact in the future? These are things that need to be addressed to do such research. I think there is a need for global corporations to step more firmly and actively into this space. I think there is a tendency to be dismissive of small research; when actually small is foundational and leads to a big impact.
G: That's really interesting. Thank you for your answers. And what do you think is the future of experiments? Where do you think it is going to go?
R: More and more, more and more. Data is becoming so relevant, I see that more companies want to ground themselves in that. I just hope it does not become like: I want to do an experiment so that I prove that what I'm saying is right. I think experimenting is out there as a concept. Some will take it as technical as it should be, and as responsible as it should be, whilst some are probably just benefiting from the buzz around it. In that, I applaud Ericsson; sometimes we are too humble.
G: From what I hear from my colleagues, you and the organisation are pioneers! Well, thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed our conversation and feel like I gained a new perspective on a lot of topics.
R: Same here Gus! Best of luck to you, and I am here if you need me at any point. To you, and all data scientists on the rise, you are key to the sustainability of our society on so many levels. Best of luck with your new role.
“There is no loss in experimenting. You always succeed; you either know what works, or you know what doesn’t.”
A big thank you to the incredible Rosario, who was so kind to let me pick her brain. Especially enlightening was the part of the conversation about her initial caution surrounding experiments, and how her conducting an experiment herself led her to become a firm believer in experimental research.